Foreigner seeks pellets information !

[Tiele]

Hi,

I'm from belgium and i am looking for the best heating system for my new home. The questions i may ask will have been answers on this forum but next to dutch and english my knowledge is limited

Overhere we have some big brands like Buderus and Viessmann that just now have included pellet boilers into there. Besides these brands there is one company that installs the nice but also expensive Ökofen boilers.

Since you people way up north have much more experience with insulation and pellets i hoped you could help me decide for an installation.

My goal:
- Fully automated pellet heating system
- Solar system with 300L boiler and 8m² solar panels. Boiler should be automaticly heated by the pellets boiler when needed.
- Ventilation with heat recuperation

I need about 15kw to keep my home cosy. This may sound high to you, but this is pretty good overhere

In short... wich is the best brand in the lower price range ? Any tips ? Can somebody tell me the price of a complete automated pellet installation ? Prices range from 6.500 euro up to 10.000 euro overhere.

Thanks in advance !

[Filippa]

I doubt that buying a complete system from Sweden would cost less, taking into consideration the transports, distance from support etc. It will probably cost more, in fact. The price range you mention equals 60-90 thousand SEK, which is exactly the same cost as here.

15 kW for Belgium sounds high, but as far as I know, you don't have as much insulation in your homes as we usually have, so you don't benefit from the warmer climate in that regard. 15 kW would be quite normal here as well.

What does the market in Belgium look like? How many retailers are there in this branch? Is there any other reason for you to turn abroad?

[Gäst]

Hello Belgium!

check this out:

3265,-- EUR
http://cgi.ebay.at/Pellets-Pellet-Holz- ... dZViewItem


5990,-- EUR
http://cgi.ebay.at/Pellet-Spezialheizke ... dZViewItem


But don´t forget: The higher price of our austrian boilers includes more comfort (ash and heat-exchanger cleaning,...)

If you can live with a little service, maybe once a week in deepest winter - it may be still interesting.

[Pellfan]

Hi,

Check out http://www.vvs-grossisten.dk/

Maybe a Ling...

Bst Rgds / P

[Tiele]

What does the market in Belgium look like? How many retailers are there in this branch? Is there any other reason for you to turn abroad?

There is one and only one company that really knows something abouts pellets here in belgium. He has the most experience... and that's about 5 years. This person only uses ökofen heaters wich is (as far as i know) pretty good quality. But the price... that's the problem.. we have nothing to compare it too.

As for the others... Viessmann, Buderus, Saint-Roch have just know taken pellets heaters into there catalogue. Problem is.. the dealers do not know ANYTHING about these machines. They know where pellets go in, warm water comes out and that's it. About 95% of our population has not even heard about pellets and finding an installer willing to work with this "experimental equiptment" is impossible.

I would like to compare this one belgian installer with czech or german companies. A problem is the language.. pellets.info is the only forum i have found but it may be a bit too far up north


As for the insulation... Indeed, we have far less ! It's even hard to convince architects to use over 4 centimeters of insulation (!!!!!!). Even up untill last year a few companies would build houses without insulation... Myself, i have used 10cm in the walls and floor and 24cm in the roof. This may sound laughable to you but it's way more then the avarage home-owner.

[Gäst]

Dag Tiele,

if you speak dutch you might understand german too

Look at this forum to find companies and opinions of german and austrian users about pelletheating.

Did you try ebay.be ? I found this offer


Chaudière à pellets CONFORT 16 avec montage
termovar loading unit inclus et raccordements Objectnummer: 7597545029

Nu kopen prijs: EUR 5.500,00
compare it to the german ebay price above


Is this the dealer you mentioned ?
http://www.chauffageaubois.be/

Bye from Austria,

[Filippa]

That would be my next question, yes. Insulation. Energy is not cheap, it's not an endless resource (if you don't use solar energy) and the best way to economize is to count the negawatts. I would implore you to check insulation as a first step.

The common paradigm in the west is to add, add, add. We haven't got used to think in terms of "what may I change so I don't have to add" yet. But it will come. So, when it comes to energy, we think "add" energy, when it is better to think "conserve".

I have been to Germany, The Netherlands and the British Isles on several occasions and I have seen the poor state lots of buildings are in. You write that you have 10 cm of insulation in the walls and 24 on the roof, and as you say, it sounds good to be in Central Europe. Me and the spouse are planning to eventually build a new house - with almost 50 cm in the walls and close to a metre on the roof - in Sweden. We will hardly have to add any extra energy to heat the house - just some to heat the water.

There are two architects working mainly in Germany and Austria; a swedish guy called Hans Eek, and his austrian collegue (name forgotten). There are at least 10 000 homes built in Germany with the passive technique so it doesn't need any extra energy source. Belgium would be so much better than frost-bitten Scandinavia for such houses. Even so, in Karlstad the community housing company is building an 11 storey building without heating system.

Steps to lower the costs for energy are:
1) insulation
2) re-use heat
3) add extra heat

I hope you're not in a hurry - take your time, learn new things, don't listen to those who know nothing about this (they will only pull you down to their level of unknowing). If you think about this on a system level, you might not need any more than a simple pellet heater in the centre of your house.

Why am I ranting about this? Because Belgium doesn't have too much of native resourses when it comes to heating. You will be less dependent if you count the negawatts first. We have lots of wood and a small population up here in the north, so the circumstances are different

[Gäst]

Insulation for a new house -> Ok. a must have

Insulation for an old house -> Let´s calculate it...


8m long x 8 m wide x 6 m high = 4 walls * 48 m = 192 m2 walls

192 m2 walls - 22 m2 windows and doors = 172 m2 to insulate

172 m2 x ~ 40 EUR/ m2 = 6880 EUR for insulating (material, work)

This would be a small house with 102 m2.



What can you save with it? 500 l oil / 1100 kg Pellets a year?
What is it in money: 320 EUR if Oil, 170 EUR if pelletheated

You need 6880 EUR / 170 EUR = 40 years to get back the investition...

In my opinion, the easiest way to save MONEY is change your windows and buy a new boiler.

[Filippa]

I can see some problems with your assumptions. You mention the cost of the extra insulation, but seem to assume that new windows, a new boiler and the fuel will be for free. The nice thing about the new passive houses is that the cost for a heating system is about the same as for the extra insulation needed to evade the use of a heating system altogether. So, the building costs the same to build, but will not cost very much to run compared to a normal house.

My own experience is that insulation is cost effective. Even more so now with new EU dirctives and the upcoming new national regulations on energy efficiency in buildings and the rising prices on energy in all it's forms.

I will not dwell on your numbers, just wait for a few months to see what happens with the house we just bought ourselves. Insulation is first priority, even if it's an ordinary old house. Thermo photography going to be executed 4th of April, which will give some real facts, but the hypothesis is that extra insulation on the roof will pay for itself pdq. Extra panes on the outside of the windows - not new ones - will be another factor. The radiators are of the old style - new ones are about 100% better in radiating off the heat from the heating water.

The drill still is to check where insulation is faulty, see what can be done with exhaustive heat and then calculate the actual heat needed. The boiler from 1979 will stay until we know we have done everything else right. Only then will we make a decision on what new boiler to buy.

The main issue with insulation is the inevitable problem of damp air. But that is another issue altogether.